Will. Can I help you listen up, I’m bringing you the best content to ever exist and the door to door industry from sales, leadership, recruiting and personal development. Why would I need that? Because never before have we been able to collaborate with the top experts in their industries, sharing their secrets and techniques and what makes them the best. We who are you? I’m your host. Sam Taggart, creator of the DDD experts and DDD con. Is there a place we can sit down? We’ll come on in door to door. Con is right around the corner with mastermind day, January 16th in salt Lake city, Utah with Tim Grover, author of relentless and Michael Jordan’s coach. You also have marquee in former NBA all star January 17th and 18th at the salt palace in salt Lake city, Utah. I’ll tell you of ed, my lit coach, Burt, Tim Grover and many more famous speakers and workshops on how to improve your leadership, sales and recruiting. Register today, DDD con.com for DDT. You users. We have a DVD you after party Friday night. Don’t miss out. Pre-register a door to door [inaudible] dot com

hi everybody. This is Sam tagger with the DDD podcast and I have a very special guest and keynote speaker for door to door con coming up in January 16th through the 18th and she is on day three and she is our marriage and family therapist and certified Gottman therapist. And those that have ever had to go to therapy or had a problem with their marriage or relationship probably has heard the word John Gottman. He is one of kind of the staples in therapy and training and helping marriages succeed and she’s trained tens of thousands of couples all over the country and help to really create a thriving marriage. So those that are in relationship and you’re listening to this podcast, this one’s for you. And if you know people that maybe are struggling with a relationship or you know, the stress of this, of this job, really it’s a true thing.

And I’m excited to talk to Lara about this and hear from her at DDD con and really, you know, I was hesitant to, you know, I’m like everybody’s coming to this business event and sales event and I’m like, you know what, we’re going to have a marriage and family person [inaudible] you just gotta teach us how to freaking thrive outside of work. And you know, she’s host of a marriage and therapy radio show. It’s called uh, you know [inaudible]. Yeah, yeah, I was like [inaudible] radio and that’s where you find more of her stuff. She also has a marriage in motion video series and we can talk about that in a little bit. And she really has been featured all over New York times, Huffington post and other podcasts. And we really look forward to having her at the event in January. So if you haven’t got your ticket, go to D two D con.com and check her out live. And if not, like let’s just dive into the podcast. So to the show, Laura,

thank you. Thanks for having me.

No, we’re, we’re excited. I’m a I, I’m a John Gottman believer myself. I have his workbook book right here.

Yeah. You’ve been drinking the Koolaid.

I drank the Koolaid. It’s not necessarily always working, but I think marriage, marriage is not a destination. And I’ve learned, you know, I’m very success driven and it’s very like I accomplished this and it’s kinda like, I realize marriage, you can’t just like

copy. Yeah. You can’t conquer it. It’s, it’s a journey every day you have to conquer it.

Exactly. I’m like, Oh man, maybe this is why I suck at Meredith. Sometimes I look at it as a, as a journey. Is it a is all right. I look at it as a conquer. Like I did it. I, I, I was number one and, but you know, so, so I’m definitely one, you know, I’ll be vulnerable and open that I, I definitely had my challenges and I’m excited to learn from you. Just if no one else listens to this, it’s heck, just train me, you know?

Yeah. Just you and me today.

Yeah. I could get free training. Yes. So anyway, so I’m excited to have you. So tell us a little bit about you and you know, what you, uh, your background a little bit and how you kind of got into this, this industry.

Sure. Yeah. So I mean, I think first and foremost, I think of myself as, as a woman, I’m a mom. Um, and I’m a wife. And then in my spare time I have a career that I like to swish in. So I kind of try and to prioritize. I’m right there in the middle of raising up a little human and keeping my husband and his career flow. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard this, but behind every strong man is an stronger woman. Um, and so that’s what I’m doing these days. Um, I work as a marriage and family therapist, so I’m licensed in the state of Washington and Utah and probably soon to be Oregon. Since this is a new residence for me and I work with all of my clients, we’re actually, um, I have this idea that there’s such a barrier that’s keeping individuals from coming to therapy.

It’s a dirty word. And actually when you said that as part of the introduction, I had this weird reaction when you said therapy, like it was a dirty word in that I was like the evil stepmother coming into force therapy on all the, all the people that are coming to the conference. Uh, which is not the case. My hope is that I break down all of the barriers. I just want to give outstanding, amazing information and research to people so that they can have the most amazing relationship that they possibly can. I think in our eyes, we all have this idea of what an Epic relationship would look like and then reality sets in. And I want people to be able to recognize for themselves how to move that bar from reality to Epic. And so that’s really what I’m focused on doing. I work with clients individually, virtually. So, um, yeah, I’ll have office hours and I meet with everybody doing exactly what we’re doing through zoom, which makes it really convenient for busy people. But then I also teach for the Gottman Institute. So I code developed descend principles program, which is what the book that you’re holding in your hand actually wrote that about five years ago, which is really cool. Did you know that?

I did not even know that.

Yeah. Yeah. So that, that was really neat. I was working, um, at the Gottman Institute as their director of professional development. And

you’re in the book, I didn’t even notice that.

Can you believe that? Yeah. So I was working at the Gottman Institute and we were all sitting around a big table and one day we just thought, how do we get this [inaudible] real in the hands of as many couples as possible? And so part of what came about is being able to train other therapists and worship leaders and people that are in the community working with couples, how to host these workshops. And part of that was writing a workbook. And now that’s what I do is I go out and I train other people how to host these workshops. I also put on workshops a cup, probably one a month around around the nation for couples. And then I do exactly what I’ll be doing for you. I’ll be speaking on a stage. So it’s kind of a fun, well-rounded career for me.

That’s exciting. No, I haven’t kiddos. Kudos. I mean, I just finished my first work book, actually published it the other day and I’m like, well it’s definitely not a marriage one, but it’s, it’s, yeah, it takes a lot to kinda format it. Think of the questions, et cetera.

Yes. And that is going to be one version because I guarantee that that that workbook is going to go through about eight other iterations from what you just finished.

Oh, I’m sure I have already. I’m already working on iteration too. I’m like this, uh, so let’s, let’s dive into it. I have, I have like question on question in our time, you know, I want to make sure we get the most out of it. Cool. So I appreciate you being on the podcast and sharing it with us, your research and longterm time of really building these workbooks and trainings and, and technologies. I like to call it to help marriages. You know, I am looking at our industry. We do well when it’s like, just give me the whole thing to copy paste in the hacks. Like there’s gotta be some tax on how to have a better marriage. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I have, I have an unused Twitter account that I think is called marriage hacks. And email reminds me that I have this Twitter account and not using, but I’m with you. Cause I’m the same way. I’m busy. I need somebody to tell me how to do it and then maybe, possibly also do it for me cause I don’t have time.

That was like my wife last night. Hey, she’s pregnant, she’s up in bed and honey, can you like brush my teeth for me? Like I don’t think I can get out and you brush your teeth for us. It was funny. So, well that’s my me working on my service. You know what?

Yes, exactly. I’m

trying. Okay, so, so let’s talk about the first topic that I really wanted dive into, which has to do with abnormal schedules and travel. Two condoms that we deal with in our job. Uh, you know, guys work later in the evenings, they work all Saturdays, they work on holidays, the, you know, and then we also have maybe a month off. It’s kinda like we might just take three weeks vacation cause we can and have this kind of abnormal eat what you kill commission base. So it’s a lot more flexibility but also a lot, a lot of grind and you know, it causes a lot of stress in relationships. So I guess I just would ask like what advice would you give a relationship that maybe is struggling due to the wife or the husband that struggles with this whole inconsistency of, you know, I can count on him being at dinner at six, like, yeah. Like you look at the average American marriage, like what did it kind of help our industry with that?

Yeah. Well a couple of things come to mind and I’m, I’m also in a, in a marriage where my husband has always traveled a lot. In fact, he traveled the first six years or so of our relationship, about 80%. He was a road warrior. Um, and now both of us are traveling. So we oftentimes will tag out at the airport and, and hope to God that our, and something doesn’t go wrong cause our kids in preschool. Um, but I’m no stranger to abnormal schedules and inconsistent schedules. And I think about it oftentimes the interrelationships, we need two things. Well we need a lot of things, but these two kind of dovetail with one another is that we need safety and security and consistency, but we also need fun and novelty and excitement. And those are two opposites that push against each other. And you can really only have the opportunity for novelty and fun and excitement, which is what we all want because that’s what we feel when we first meet one another.

That’s the excitement. And that can be getting to know someone and the sex is great and passionate. So we want that. But at the same time, we can’t have that if our life feels so chaotic and turned upside down and is 100% unpredictable. So we really have to find a balance. So we want to lean on the side of how do we create some sort of consistency in the time that we are together. And part of that that I like to teach people is to create rituals and rituals can happen. The definition of a ritual is something that is predictable, that happens on a regular basis and has some sort of meaning for you and your partner. And rituals can be in the morning, they can be at night, they can be all throughout the day. And rituals can also be something that happens when you’re away from one another. Like the first person that wakes up, texts the other person, um, you know, an emoji or a silly GIF or whatever it might be so that you can express your love for that person, but it’s consistent. You’re looking forward to it. So rituals are really important for the busy business person.

I love that. And I think that usually those that work out in this job tend to be all obsessive with the novelty, fun and excitement. Cause they can, they can hack the uncertainty cause they knocked doors for a living. You know what? I mean there’s so much uncertainty in and out of the self of the job. Yeah. The thing they struggle at probably realizing and, and it’s weird, I always have noticed like opposites kind of attract like the wife or the husband that isn’t knocking tends to be the one that likes the consistency and security and needs more in their life. So I love that.

Totally. Well it’s, it’s interesting cause it’s like the more often, let’s just say it’s the male spouse that’s out there knocking, the more often they’re going out and they’re away from home and there’s all this unknown happening at home. The more that person at home is going to seek all the consistency and seek all the security cause they’re coming to some sort of a balance. And so you’re going to think what is your deal? Why are you always asking me to check in? I don’t understand why you need this or why is it that you have to have a certain amount of money in the bank to make you feel comfortable because you’re off there, you know, bouncing off the walls with all the uncertainty and the excitement. And not knowing what’s gonna happen pursuing and your partners at home. Just like, come on man, just give me something to hold on to.

Yeah, no, I that makes more sense now. No, but I mean, yeah, I think that they, they have to almost over over competency because they’re like, geez, like I need to S I, I’m out of control because, you know, my spouse is out of control and they, they, they almost become, you know, a lot of guys use the term, Oh my wife’s so needy or blah blah blah. And it’s like they’re just trying to grasp anything that can potentially, am I on the right [inaudible]

yes. Yes. You are 100% on the right track. And media is a really interesting word because they are needy. They need security, they need attention, they need love. And so do you, um, but they’re in a place where they’re feeling out of control. You’re the one that’s driving the fun meter and they’re back at home trying to drive the security meter and the way that we can kind of tether you to one another and help to buy it. Find some sort of middle ground is if you create these rituals and rituals are great for the busiest human being. I tend to be very busy because it’s allowing your relationship to have some moment of autopilot because when you create a ritual, it takes that cognitive load that you have and it makes it so much easier. It says, you don’t even have to think about this.

It’s like you don’t wake up and think, am I going to go to the gym today? You just know that you’re putting your shoes on. You’re running out the door at five 30 in the morning. It’s going to happen no matter what. You don’t have to think about it. There’s not an opportunity for you to say, no, it’s a little too cold outside, or, yeah, I had too much steak last night. So you’re creating a ritual that’s also creating a habit in your relationship and the habit is to connect on a regular basis that gives your partner that security that they need and connecting can happen. It’s so easy. It’s just like rolling over in the morning and spending that five minutes snuggling with your partner. No matter what you have going on in the day, you’re taking that moment and you’re saying, this is our time together. And I do it every single morning and after a while I don’t even think about it. Or, um, you know, making sure that you text your partner in the middle of the day just saying, I’m thinking about you or I drove by this and it made me think about that one time when we did this. Just telling them that they love that you love them. Um, all throughout the day

I have a, I have a challenge for everybody right now. Stop the podcast, pause, send your spouse a text, see how it goes. No, I love it. I love it. No, cause I, I am probably the worst at this. So I, you were speaking to me if anybody, and I know, I’ve noticed times, it’s funny when I travel, I’ll go for a week at a time or, or four days and speak and coach and stuff like that. So yeah, it’s, you know, there’s a tool in your phone that you can schedule messages and you know, you can have it auto send messages throughout the week. And what I found is I’m on the plane, I send out 20 messages for the whole week auto send. And I think my wife figured it out. So she’s, but I’m like, she’s still like, at least he thought about it on the plane and at least the conversation, cause if I didn’t do that, I’m in zone. I am in like, and yeah. And she like kinda caught me doing it and I was like, Oh man, she figured out my hack. She knows that I’m really not thinking about her at two o’clock when I’m in the middle of with a client. You know what I mean? Like, but she still was like, honestly though, I still love getting it, you know what I mean? And

yeah. Yeah.

So I, I, I think that even that, I mean that was like a little hack for me, but I, I’m no master at this, but anything, is there any other like cool ideas of rituals for the busy business person like that you, you’ve said like, Ooh, this one’s money. Try this.

Oh, interesting. So I mean I have a couple of things. One is, um, so I was speaking at Google, so I’m originally from Seattle and we have a lot of Google campuses that has come on to do a Google talk talking about the seven principles. And while I was there, I had a sea of engineers and not a single one of them made eye contact with me the entire talk until I got to the point where I started talking about using technology to deepen your intimacy with your partner. And when I gave them permission to pull their phones out and send an alarm on their phone to send a text to their partner every single day, finally I had, I was like, Oh, they’re not sleeping. They’re actually listening to me. So then they pull out their, they set an alarm on their phone, much like you sort of getting all of your messages lined up for the week.

And that way, you know, every single day I’m going to be reminded by this time one 22 or one 23 in the middle of the day to send my partner text. And hopefully it’s a heartfelt text, you know. But I would say you said something that was really important, which is, uh, starting a conversation and conversation is wonderful because we can talk at our partners all day long. But what we really need to be able to do is have a deeper conversation that’s more meaningful for someone who’s super busy. When we get home, usually all we’re doing is Shoptalk. We’re just going over the details of how to manage our lives and how to manage the people around us. So, um, there was one study that came out of LA that said that for a week, couples only have face to face dialog 30 minutes a week. Are you surprised by that?

I am definitely not. But yeah, I’m not, cause I look back and I go, I mean we went on a walk yesterday and that was like good meaningful talk, which is great. But I looked back and I go, no, it’s like how soon can I turn on the Netflix show because that’s more comfortable to me than trying to like connect. Cause I know if I try to connect and it’s going to turn into some DTR and then it’s going to turn into like, are you yelling at me? And then I’m like, nah, let’s start. Like you know it, it, I mean like I’m just kidding.

Okay. That’s you just gave me a really good idea. So one of the issues that I hear a lot of men say in particular is that they don’t want to connect with their partner because they’re worried their partner is going to give their partner free rein to say. And then here’s all the things I’ve had issues with you over the last week. Even, you know,

like open, like I opened the door a little and they take it as any window opportunity to be like, I’m gonna vomit all my life [inaudible] to you. And it’s like I’m not ready for it. Like old on like open the door. Let’s just try. I five watch Netflix for a second.

We’re going to tighten it up just a little bit cause I do think that this is a valid concern. So around this idea of ritual and conversation we’re going to create, and you might have read this in dr mins research is he’s created what’s called, um, a stress reducing conversation. Does this sound familiar at all to you?

Yes. And it has cops in the heart, startups and soft startups and that

you’re so close. I’ll tell you more about it. You’re on conflict management skills. So this stress reducing conversation is you set a timer. So here’s the beauty of it because between male and female partners, we all know that females culturally just have more words than men. So you say, honey, how was your day today? And that begins the verbal diarrhea and she can go on for an hour. By this point you’ve learned, I never ask that question again because I just missed the first half of the football game and I’m never going to get that moment back. Right? So you set a time limit on your phone and each of you gets 10 minutes to speak. So she talks about her day and how stressful it was. Now the beauty of the stress reducing conversation is that you are not talking about your internal gripe and stress for the other person.

She does not get to bag on you. She doesn’t get to talk about how she was really disappointed that you didn’t make her dinner last night and you don’t get to talk about the fact that you guys haven’t made less than two weeks. It’s all about the external stressors. If you’re not stressed out, it’s also a way for you to just say, you know what, I’m really stoked about? I’m about to close five deals and we’re going to have a really good month. So it doesn’t have to be stressed, but I want for you to share about what’s going on inside your world so that your partner gets an opportunity to get to know who you are and you’re genuinely curious to know what’s going on inside your partner’s world as well. So after her tenants are at the buzzer goes off, you switch, you know, you talk for 10 minutes about what’s going on in your world. When the 20 minutes are up, you’re done and you’ve connected, you’ve talked, you’ve had eye and eye to eye conversation. I’m going to make that a new thing I conversation.

I love that. I mean, Hey, we’re like, what’s the mind blowing piece of my world is, I am probably one of the greatest communicators in the planet. I do door to door sales for the last 18 years. Mastered communication from sailing. Yes. Communicating when my wife’s somehow, you know what I mean? It’s like you’re like, you’re like, how am I not able to talk to you? And that’s like, do for a living. Like, you know, and, and I, and if you’re listening to this, I, I’m sorry, I’m just telling you my story cause maybe [inaudible] maybe it don’t relate. You’re like, no, I have great relationship conversation. No, I love this. So here’s the question on the 10 10 cause this is where I don’t feel like the boundaries will be kept. I start talking within about three fourths of a way from one sentence to be done. She interrupts with like whatever. You know what I mean? And so I just get into the problems of like, man, I can’t finish the sentence. So then I just show you kind of keep going. Yeah. Is there a boundary? And then she goes, why aren’t you saying anything when I talk, I’m like, cause I’m like, I’m not a Dick. Like, like I’m going to let you finish your thought before I interrupt you mid thought like you. So is there a boundary in these 10 minutes?

Yeah. Oh absolutely. And anytime you practice this, you’re gonna screw up because you’ve been doing the same mode of conversation for the last eight, 10 1520 years or however long it might be, but there’s absolutely boundaries. So what I say is that you’re going to zip it and for people who have a tough time zip in it, get them a and paper and say, just take notes. Just practice taking notes for 10 minutes. And this might feel awkward and clunky and a little excessive, but all we’re trying to do is create a new habit of listening to your partner. And all I want for you to do is you’re just going to nod along and you’re going to go, Oh, and you’re going to empathize. That must be really hard. Oh gosh. You know what, man, that’s a tough, tough day. Whatever it might be.

So you’re just going to empathize with your partner. You’re not going to use your own agenda to ask further questions because what ends up happening is your partner says something and you’re like, Oh, that reminds me. What are we doing about next? You know, Thanksgiving holiday. And you’re like, Hey, you just derailed my train of thought. So you’re really not going to be interrupting your partner at all. And yes, it’s going to be awkward. She’s going to step all over you that the first time. You’re probably not gonna say anything and she’s going to say, just at least nod your head. Dude, let me know you’re listening. So you’re good. You just have to practice the skills, but you’ll get better at it.

Yeah, no, I, I, this is nuggets, nuggets on nuggets and I’m not, I’m not teaching anyone how to sling more deals on this podcast, but it is this one inadvertently helped you slay more details because you’ll be way happier if you can

that. Well, I mean that’s just it, right? Cause we know that when we’re in a better place in our relationship, our bodies are healthier, we have more energy, we sleep better. We’re just in general, healthier. And when we’re in a good relationship, our partner actually takes better care of us so that we end up being better at what we go off to do. So it’s, it’s cyclical. There’s a reason why people should have healthy relationships. If they’re super motivated to go and slay more deals.

And we have to remind ourselves we’re not taking any of the material business achievements trophies with us when we die. You know what I mean? You got to remember that, um, your relationships and family and spouse, and I fail to remember this a lot of times when I’m speaking me included. Oh, it’s kinda like what really matters at the end of the day. And sometimes we struggle with that. Yeah. So I want to, I want to shift gears a little bit. There’s two more topics I don’t talk on and you can pick which one we go for first. The difference between masculine and feminine is one. And then the other one is the four horsemen. And just kind of a rough intro or overview of this whole principle of the, you know, got on talks about, he’s like, I can predict divorce within 90 some percent, you know, and those that are listening are probably like, what the heck are the four horsemen? But

I know, well, okay, so let’s dive into that. Yes, let’s jam on that. And I’ll be perfectly honest, when it comes to masculine and feminine, woo. I mean, you’re talking to a girl that went to a very liberal arts college. I can tell you straight off like, no, there’s nothing. We all have a little bit of masculine and in us. So, um, you know that one I’m not as confident talking about, but I will talk all day long about the four horsemen. Let’s go ham on the four from them. Okay. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about what that is. I will, yeah, just the dr Gottman, that’s my, my teacher, um, that I teach from his material. That’s where I got my job. And anyway, so he is the Michael Jordan, he’s the Oprah, the Deepak Chopra of couples therapy. There is like a, before John Gottman and an after John Gottman.

So he started doing research in the 70s and he continues to do research now. And the interesting part about doing research in the 70s is that we didn’t have any research on couples. We did, we watched relationships fall apart, but we didn’t know why they fell apart. We had all sorts of ideas, but we didn’t actually have research that validated, Hey, if you do this, you definitely will get a divorce. And not only that, but I can predict how soon it’ll take you to get a divorce. So he ended up studying these couples and he found that there are four very distinct behaviors that when they show up in relationships, if they’re left unattended to they just wreak havoc on relationships and they slowly start to deteriorate them to the point where it’s very uncomfortable to be in a relationship with someone. So I’m going to give you a hint with these four behaviors are, and I want to give a little bit of a caveat because for the listeners, you are absolutely going to hear that you do one of these four behaviors and is also going to be very easy for you to start thinking, well, my partner does this.

Well, she does that all the time. Um, but I want instead for everybody listening to just think about themselves and think about what, which of these four behaviors or multiples do I do? And how can I start to recognize them and then remove them from my relationship? Okay. The first one is defensiveness and defensiveness comes out when you feel attacked. So in a relationship, I want you for you to think of that in like a conflict situation. When your partner comes at you and start saying, I’m upset about this, this frustrated me today, this is what’s going on. And you start to take it to take a defensive stance and you’re like wording off a perceived attack. But instead of actually taking responsibility and saying, you know what, I was, I was three hours late today getting home from work and I can understand why you’d be frustrated with that.

I will contact you when I know I’m going to be running late and let you know when I’m 10 minutes out. Would that be more helpful? So it defensiveness happens when, when you’re warding off an attack rather than taking responsibility for what that might be. Um, so there’s antidotes to this because the whole idea is that yes, these four behaviors show up, but they don’t have to. And a way to recognize if you fall into a rut of using one of these, you can use what’s called the antidote. So the antidote, defensiveness is taking responsibility because usually when somebody is pointing a finger at you, usually there’s something accurate about what they’re pointing their finger at you about. There’s usually you’re totally perfect.

100% and you know what’s funny is that using humor like that, so if your wife was to come to you and she says something like, you know why you are so inconsiderate and you’re always late. There is nothing wrong with using a little bit of humor and saying me late, never. I am never late. I am so perfect beyond perfect because what does that actually show him? That’s actually showing that like okay, you got me, you’re right. I could be late from time to time. Um, okay. So both her saying you are so inconsiderate and you’re always late. That’s criticism. That’s also one of the four horsemen. So she is not faultless in this situation. So criticism is taking something and you start to internalize it to your partner. So the fact that your partner might have been late because there was traffic, they got held up at a meeting, they were out, uh, and they were on a roll, whatever it might be.

Yeah, that’s, that’s a frustration of yours that they relate, but now you’re calling them inconsiderate and now your name calling, now you’re attacking their character. That’s criticism and that’s not healthy in relationships. So instead, instead of criticizing your partner, you want to address the concern, but you don’t want to internalize it to their partners. You might say something like, you know, I really, I get frustrated when I don’t know when you’re going to be home. I wish that you could call ahead and give me some idea of what your end time is going to be like. That’s totally okay. You can complain in relationships, but you can’t blame in relationships. And that’s a big piece of the puzzle when you’re trying to break down criticism. Okay. Oh,

have you found, and I’m just going out and I did the workshop. So I feel like women are a feminine energy, tends to be a little bit more critical and guys tend to be, are masculine energy tend to be a little bit more defensive. Uh, is that a common thing?

Right. It’s, that’s what it is. So it’s common that they’re paired up so it doesn’t really matter who takes on which, so if your partner is critical by nature, then you by nature will be defensive or vice versa. Because whomever is launching those attacks, you are going to develop a mastery skill of defending off those attacks. Neither is, it’s a vicious cycle

and the wizard, it creates more a text.

Oh, bigger bombs. That’s like

her mechanism. You know, I’m going to pull up a bazooka this time. There’s no need to defend here when we are bulls at war. I exactly. No, I love that. I need to know. I definitely need to get way better at just taking responsibility. You know what I mean? And it’s, yeah, that’s a trait and that’s a trait. I tried to teach it. A lot of sales guys is taking ownership. You know, you look at it in anything in life, it’s like, how can you say, I can own this, it’s on me. Instead of trying to always come up with some other excuse or some other, a Nagel your way out of it, you know what I mean? And being a good salesperson where you tend to have the good skill of selling our way out of stuff. Yeah.

Right. You become the best politician and you’re like, I’m not going to answer your question but I’m gonna tell you about this other thing I really like.

Yup. Be direct. And, and, and, and it’s because that’s a common thing in our industry that is quite interesting is because we’re so master manipulators or persuasive or [inaudible], whatever you want to call it. That’s where it tends to hurt our marriages is, Oh, do what I mean,

I’m taking notes here. We’re going to talk to the audience about this one. Okay.

See what I mean? So then my wife was like, you’re just a good salesman and can’t trust anything. I say, because she knows I could have a sales or she’s like, you’re selling your way out of this. And I’m like, okay, I really don’t try to, that’s just who I am. It’s just this common big. And I’m like, ah darn. She’s like your salesman voices back on. And I’m like, yeah, I will try anyway. But the, I wanted to talk to that because I guaran fricking T you others listening, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. So if you tend to feel like you are a defender, if that’s, if that’s just something like maybe your partner is just a really good criticizer and you’ve developed this armor of defense, then I would say you don’t have to fall on your sword. But what I do want for you to think is, man, is there some element of truth in my partner’s complaint? And it’s tough because they’re coming at you with like these really sharp swords and you’re having to sort of look through the swords and say, okay, what does she really hurt about? What’s her complaint rather than what is her attack on me? Cause if, if she’s saying, man, yours, you’re not thoughtful, you don’t think about me, you’re always late. You’re like, man, what is she trying to say? She’s saying she misses me and that she wishes I was considerate of her and let her know in advance. There’s some truth to that.

Is there a machine or you know, like you know how like in the movies the robbers have like that voice changer or is there like a Google like translator for women that are shooting? It starts like that. And what I’m trying to say is come hold me and I just want to feel love. And it’s like, then why do you say it? Like so busy? Like I need the Google translator for my wife at the time. You’re like, yeah. And I’ve found, so, you know, I’ve found when I can control my emotions and anxiety and heartbeat and all breath and all that, and I can take a breath and be like, what she’s really trying to say is I can’t hear what she’s really saying. Yeah. I’d have to hear what’s beneath what she’s saying.


yeah, I mean, and that, and that’s where I’ve seen wins in my marriage. Totally. And I constantly don’t have an eye, uh, like a, an earpiece in that’s like, no, no, she’s saying this and I wish me and you should have a constant earpiece going in. That would be phenomenal. Laura, quick hurry, she’s coming at me. What do I do? What should I hear? It’d be a good line, you know, if I had a phone, a friend in the moment,

I will be your friend for sure. Yeah. It’s, that’s absolutely, that’s a skill that we build into our workshops is how do you hear underneath what’s underneath that? Like how do you filter through the anger and the frustration? And part of it is you don’t have to work that hard if she’s also working on softening her approach, which is another skill she needs to be able to complain in the relationship without blaming. And that piece means taking ownership and saying, well, what is it that I really need and how can I address that with my partner without putting off all of his defenses? So she really has to soften that. And as far as the differences between masculine and feminine, we actually know that when it comes to addressing a concern in the relationship, women are more likely to do that, much more likely to be the ones that are going to come and say, this isn’t working for me or I don’t like how this is going in the relationship. And it doesn’t mean that men don’t also see that as not working or they don’t care about it. We just don’t have the words to address it. Um, or they’re just not culturally, um, uh, you know, rounded to, to address that. So yeah.

Good. No good. So let’s finish up with three and four. Okay.

Yeah. So, um, we’ve done criticism and defensiveness. Those are usually married to one another. And then we have stonewalling. And this one is all about the guys because we have out of heterosexual relationships, eight out of 10, about 80% of men are going to be the stone wallers and the relationship and stonewalling. You can kind of imagine what it looks like if you were to be in a conversation with me and I’m looking you dead in the eye and I’m talking to you. I also might be criticizing you. You’re going to have your arms folded, you’re going to have your head down, you’re not going to be making eye contact. You’re going to zip it. She not talking to me. So you’re physically present in the conversation, but you are putting off every indication that you are not interested, that you’re not hearing me. And in your mind you’re probably thinking, I can’t say anything. Cause if I say anything, it’s just gonna make it worse. So I’m just gonna sit here and take it until it blows over. That’s a Stonewall and that’s not helpful.

The descriptive of my moment

lessons, you’re like, ah, this, uh, this does look familiar.

Yeah. And, and sometimes you think you’re, you know, I, I justify my stonewalling because I’m like, Oh, but this is at least [inaudible] the better than me trying to like talk like shit. I mean if I try to say something that’s come up as criticism or defensiveness, so if I don’t say anything, then hopefully that it’ll just go away and then bigger and bigger ammo comes out.

That’s exactly it. Because when you put up a stone wall now your, your partner’s like, Oh a challenge. Well allow me, cause I have all the weapons to break that wall down and that’s when usually everything escalates from there. So the antidote to stonewalling, and this is kind of a fun one, is that through research they found that men’s heartbeats were actually reaching up and over a hundred beats per minute, which was then predictive of them stonewalling in the next 10 seconds. So first you have heart rate goes up, up, up, up, up, up, up. Then they cross their arms, they disengage from the conversation, they pull out and they Stonewall. So what we’ve found is that if we’re able to manage that heart rate and keep men and women, but we’re mostly talking to men from stonewalling, by giving them skills to self-sooth to do some deep breathing to say I think I just need to take a break. Like this is too much for me right now. Let’s take a break, we’ll come back to it. So it’s all about managing that heart rate so that you don’t go into fight or flight cause nobody wants to have a conversation with their loved one in a state of fight or flight, that’s where you do more harm.

Oh. So I called it freeze. So I was like I’m just freezing. My Migdal is telling me to like

I’ll just blend into the wall. She won’t see me

anyway. So no, but that, but that’s interesting cause we all have like these smartwatches and my smartwatch just telling me to do the torso twist right now cause I’ve been sitting here.

Yeah, that’s good. That’s good. Get the toxins out.

Exactly. So I’m wondering if I could like look at my wrist and be like, take my heart temperature real quick and see if I uh, it’s escalating. Can pre preemptively kind of almost like paying attention to that because I think that half the time, by the time I pay attention to um, Oh, I’m stonewalling right now, it’s too late. I’m like, yeah, and I’m intentionally snowed. Wally right now suck it, you know,

bigger than your dogs.

No, but it’s so true. You literally, the way you described Stonewall, I’m like Oh that was guilty like to a T. no, but I mean, and it’s funny cause my wife is like stonewalling is just as damaging or just as painful as food as them.


To me it was hard for me to wrap my head around that because it was like, well I’m not anything. Yeah. And you’re the one saying a bunch of meaningful things are criticizing and telling me how of a pathetic person I am. But yet stonewalling is telling her how pathetic or unimportant or on, you know, like how little I care, which is essentially saying the same thing without saying anything. And I think that that’s uh, something I took from the workshop that hit me hard and I was like, Oh

wow, I guess I’m at fault here. I guess 70 years of research or my marriage is different. And you know, what is the double whammy is that, let’s just say that some of the spouses of your listeners have abandonment issues. Let’s just, you know, if we’re going to make up a story, we’ll make that one up that your listeners are all in. They’re on the road for a couple of weeks, sometimes months at a time. And the loved ones that are left behind are starting to feel abandoned now when they have something that’s important to them. So they’re addressing it with you. The moment you get uncomfortable, what do you do? You abandoned them in your mind. So you’re still physically there, but you are emotionally abandoning them. You’re saying what you say to me right now is one, it’s like unsafe. I’m not interested in listening. This is uncomfortable for me. So now they can’t get you physically and they can’t get you emotionally double whammy. So if we can keep, um, keep your listeners from stonewalling and staying in the conversation, remaining present, then I think we can be undoing a lot of damage. So stonewalling is an important piece and that’s three out of four of the four horsemen.

And then the last one is

contempt. So the last one’s contempt. I saved the last one cause it is a doozy. Contempt is like sulfuric acid on the relationship. It’s the hardest one and it tends to creep in in later relationships. So you’ve been together long enough where there could be some contempt. Um, but contempt comes across as name-calling. Unfortunately sarcasm because I am the queen of sarcasm. Um, it comes across in an overall sense that I am superior to you. I am smarter than you. I am cleaner than you. I’m more intelligent. I am better looking, I make more money. It’s this feeling of superiority over your partner and it’s very subtle for some people of you know, you don’t worry about it. You can’t handle it, I’ll take care of it. It’s this feeling that you’re better than your partner and it can be incredibly difficult and toxic on relationships.

I think that goes both ways. I definitely could say I’m guilty of the, you know, I use the sarcasm or I use the kind of deep stab of like, you know, I’m better or I, you know, like I’m gonna make you feel like crap for how you’ve been acting or yeah. And yeah, I could say that, you know, I’m not trying to be like John Gottman at 97% chance of a divorce. You know what? You know, but that’s the point. Like he goes, these are the things that slowly deteriorate your marriage. Right.

And if they’re left unattended too, if you don’t start to notice them and say, man, aye. I’m like, boy, I’m like super defensive. And I tend to Stonewall a lot if you don’t start to recognize them. And then in those moments say I’m going to do something different rather than Stonewall, I’m going to say I need to take a break rather than Stonewall. I’m going to do some deep breathing. Rather than get defensive, I’m going to find some truth in your statement and take responsibility for it. So you start to use the antidotes and you’re never going to have a relationship that is free of any of the four horsemen. They crop up from time to time, but it’s corralling them. You gotta, you want to manage the four horsemen. You don’t want them managing you.

Love that. You want to man, now get right there. You want to manage the four horsemen, not let them manage you. And you know like, yeah, me being passionate about the topic, I want appreciate you just

brain dumping everything onto us right now. Every dude out there needs to take one little nugget from this and go home to their wife or spouse or partner or whatever and be like, look, I suck at this. I’m going to work on defensiveness. I’m going, no, not stonewalling. And make a commitment to be better. I mean, think about it. Life is about to have, it’s meant to have joy, right? And it’s meant to be happy, meant to be excited. Like, why you get married in the first place is to say, I get to enjoy this life with somebody else. You know what I mean? And sometimes the devil creeps in and says, it’ll be better by yourself because you don’t have to deal with that. You know what I mean? And if there’s anyone listening, definitely, I’m not the guy that’s the expert. Lara is definitely the expert.

I have not started to sell for claim. Me and my wife is amazing and she is the, I want to make this thing better. I want to fricking get better at this. And she is the one that reminding me the rock and I’m the one that’s like, okay, I suck at this and I just need to drop my ego sometimes and, and realize that I’m not good at everything. Right. And I can get better. And um, you know, and I, and, and, and I’m saying this just to be open and moral just because I think it’s inviting open. Like, I think a lot of times people put on a face because they’re like, Oh, that must be, that guy must be crushing it, or that guy must be this. Or a lot of times people don’t realize like, no, just because you have success in one aspect of your life doesn’t mean that you’re crushing it or that like behind closed doors, it’s kinda like people need to be more willing and open to see a therapist. It’s not the devil. Right. It’s not a foreign [inaudible]

I am not the devil.

No. You know what I mean? Like you said at the beginning, you’re like, it had this weird connotation. I’m like, yeah, even if your marriage is going good. Nice. Right. And, and even if you’re, you know, like a lot of people have this like, Oh, like I don’t want to be seen like that. And then a lot of people don’t even like to talk about it. They just keep pushing her on the rug and both partners are kind of like, I know we’re not really doing well, but I don’t want to bring it up. You know what I mean? So I’m always, Hey, if we can be more open about it, the more progress should probably have.

Yeah, totally. That’s, I mean, that’s my goal. So on average, people wait on average six years past the point where they first started to experience tension or feel like something wasn’t right in the relationship. Six years. So that by the time they go see the devil therapist me there six years into contempt, there’s six years into all of these bad behaviors that have been festering at the relationship. And my whole journey in this walk, this path that I’m on is I want to break down the barriers. Let’s cut six years in half. Let’s cut six years, three years in half again. Let’s get people to just come to a workshop or you know, watch one of the video series that I put out or listen to my podcast. Take information in and start thinking about your relationship and being intentional and mindful rather than letting it go on autopilot because it’s just you have to have, you have to work at a relationship.

Love that, love that. So if somebody wants to find your video module, video series, we have comp code D two D.

that’s right. That’s right.

What’s the website? How do they,

yeah, so to find, um, my podcast website and also the video module, video series, it’s um, marriage therapy, radio.com. And if you’re interested, you can, you can binge the podcasts. I have a lot of male and female listeners. And then there’s also a tab at the top that says marriage in motion. And that’s the online video series that you can watch. And I love that because I’m so busy and I just need like an MP3 or a video to watch before bed. Um, and that’s just a great way to access it. It’s originally $300. I’ll take $50 off for everybody that’s listening, so that’ll be kind of a nice little bonus. So you just put in the, the, um, code D two D and that’ll take $50 off the video series.

Love it, love it. So check that out guys. I, I invite those that aren’t invest in your marriage. You know, we invest in courses, we invest in the conference, let’s come to door to door con. That’s an investing in your business and life, but invest in your marriage. You know what I mean? And I spent a lot of money trying to fix it and therapy and this and that and I still do. And I, uh, I found it’s really helped. I mean, I probably wouldn’t still be together to be honest if I had, you know, so, yeah. Anyways, so I appreciate you being on the, on the podcast and, and really taking your time out of your day and coming to the event. It’ll be really fun to hear more of this. Obviously a lot. Um, outlined out, you know, this just kind kinda, Hey, let’s get to know Laura. And he kind of knows like, she is going to be on the main stage with ed, my let Tim, Grover, all these other cats. Um, so appreciate you taking [inaudible] to represent the seen males out there. I literally was like, we need more female speakers. So we were excited. It’s, it’s, it’s definitely, uh, a privilege. And I think that there’s so much to learn. Okay. Um, yeah. From you and from, from your background. So I’m looking forward to it. Okay. Thank you. Hey, and those listening, share this, like this, tag, a friend that could use this. It very much is prideful, Chuck nuggets that immediately [inaudible]

you go home. Thank you. And we’ll see you guys on the next episode.

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