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Everybody. This is damn tagger with the DDD podcast and I’m here with Jeff Baird. He’s a speaker, trainer of body language. He comes into it and data, uh, background, but he also speaks around the country on a specific niche of this nonverbal communication. So this is exciting to have you on the show. And you know, you spoke at the first door to the Orrcon, you were one of the, one of the crowd favorites on, you know, this, this tactical, you know, actual skillset of how do we, how do we master what’s not said, but what shown, what’s the energy given off? What’s the trust built? So diving into this, if you’re watching or listening, we’re going to be talking about, you know, the nonverbals building trust that, you know, you could have all the data. What’s so crazy is you coming from the data off of camera and just coming from the data analytics, it’s like you gotta have all the facts and proof in the world.
Did this makes sense? And they still go on Pi. Yup. So we’re going to go through how do we overcome that? How do we, how do we bridge that trap trust gap. So if you’re watching or listening, that’s the, that’s the podcast. So welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me. So tell us, tell us a little bit about your background. I mean, you’re obviously not the door to door sales guy. You’re not, you’re not the guy pavement pounding the pavement, but you obviously are super pertinent in our niche. Um, kind of tell us a little bit about you and then kind of how you got into this body language. You’ve got expert.
Yeah, I’m definitely not a sales guy. I’m the it Geek, but I, I’ve been on a somewhat reluctant path of discovery to, to realize that even though I’ve been in data for so long and then tend to be very left brained and then focus on logic of, started to realize more and more that the, the data and facts don’t persuade. They don’t change behavior, they don’t change people’s minds. And a sales guys have understood this for years. The old adage that when we buy on emotion and then justify with logic, the data guys and the it guys trying to catch up to that, but they are slowly catching up there. They’re starting even in conferences to talk about how to tell stories with your data and how to invoke emotion so that you can actually change behavior with it. And so I’ve been on my own journey with that.
Trying to, trying to reconcile that, trying to to accept that my beloved data is not enough if I actually want to change minds and influence people. And so that prompted me to start studying neuroscience and psychology. And one of the areas where I found the biggest bang you can get for your buck is body language with such a huge portion of our communication being body language. Then that gives us a chance to really influence our interactions with other people. And that’s been key for me to be able to start to, to be successful. They influenced and changing people’s minds. And I think it’s something that’s overlooked a lot of times. You know, it’s like
I want to know exactly what to say, what’s the script, what, what, what do I do to, to sell this person? And we just talk about the how. It’s not like we don’t really do much emphasis on the nonverbal and the body language. I think it’s cool that you, you found that to be like biggest bang for my buck, you know? And when 60 to 90% of our communication is body language. It’s like why don’t we spend time and energy?
So I fall into the same trap myself. If I’m doing a speech or a presentation, I’ll start to slip back into just the content and I have to remind myself that that’s just part of the equation. I need to make sure that I focus on how on how I’m presenting as well. Cool. So kind of fast forward, what got you into the actual speaking and training on it? How did that kind of shape, I guess you’d say? I’ve always found that if I had a weakness, the fastest way that I could improve on that weakness was to start teaching. And so I started studying body language to fix myself to see if I could become a better speaker in a better influencer. And there was an opportunity through a behavioral research lab out of Oregon where they were going to take 10 people from around the world to come and go through a pilot program to become a certified body language trainer.
I didn’t know that was a thing. So I threw my hat in the ring and not really school. I was a certified body, like not yet. I’m just by body language, straight upward as cool. So I threw my hat in the ring, not really expecting out of a global competition to be able to get into this group, but I did get accepted to it and went through training to become a certified body language trainer. And at first I was using it mainly for myself and then started teaching my own it group and engineers on some things that they could do different. And then it just started expanding to the entire organization I was working for. And then after that starts expanding outside of that to other industries because if you’re a person communicating with other people, then this is going to be relevant. It’s going to help.
Yeah, it’s, it’s, we all communicate and so let’s do it better. And some of us don’t do it well. It’s so funny, I’m like a master communicator but terrible at communicating in my, in my marriage or like my family. You know, it’s so funny. It’s like, but we are constantly communicating, um, with words, without words. So I think that that’s powerful and I think businesses lack that skillset. I really do. So kind of fast forward a little bit, let’s dive into the content of this. Like you know, body language is, is a powerful thing. The nonverbal to bridge this trust gap, right? So it’s like to make people do something to move action. It’s, it’s, it’s how do we leverage the, this to build
trust I guess would be my question. And to to understand that I’m going to do a little neuroscience one on one so you can take a nap if this part part the interesting part like this, if you’re like, okay, tell me about the brain. The brain science. No, it’s funny because the sales guys that are really good, they studied the brain. They know where the, the dopamine hit happens in the fear in that fight or flight part of your a Migdal is in your, you know what I mean? Like, so I’m all about the neuroscience go. This is three guys understand this stuff. But this way, if you can see my hand, this is a handy model of the brain. And there’s three basic parts that roughly go up the evolutionary ladder. Uh, you have the, the brain stem that comes up here and then tucked away.
And here where your thumb is is the limbic system. Those two parts of the primitive part of the brain, they’re, they’re very fast acting, they’re focused on survival and emotion and things like that. And then the fingers rapping over the top is the, the more the younger part of the brain, the neocortex. Okay. Well when we hear this adage that we buy on emotion and justify with logic, we’re buying off of the brainstem and the limbic system. Okay. And then once we’ve made that decision emotionally, then the neo cortex kicks in to try to justify why you made that decision to 70% off. That would be the simple example. My wife is buying stuff on Amazon all the time and I’m always like, how’d you get that well done? I was a good deal. I’m like, so you just bought, cause you know, is that from it?
Was that it was that uh, the cortex that was telling her to feel okay about that decision. Interesting. And now the thing is is that our, our honest body language, the, the stuff we don’t have to think about the involuntary body language also comes from this part of the brain and is what we need to understand and other people in order to build trust and influence. Cool. I’ve heard the, you know the Amygdala you mentioned they may deal with, I’ve heard it described as as a mere cat if you ever seen the mere cats at the zoo that popped up, I think a squirrel things in there. They’re looking out over the Savannah watching for lions and if they see a lion then they’ll squeak or whatever it is that your cats do and then they’ll go hide into their hole or make Dylan or fight or flight system works kind of the same way.
It’s always scanning the environment for danger and if it sees something that it is concerned with, then it will alert us. It’ll put us into fight or flight mode and that will leak out non verbally, which can give you clues as to how people are really feeling. And if we’re trying to persuade or trying to sell something to someone and they’re in that mode, then they won’t be receptive. It’s that part of the brain we have to kind of win over and to get them to trust us and like us, if they’re going to be able to be willing to talk to us and buy from us. Interesting. So it’s like we imagine all of our customers is mere cats. Yeah. And we our big that and we have a year cat. But what’s funny is we have our mere cat tune, we’re in a sales situation and the guy starts to get aggressive in the sense of like, dude, I just am not interested and I don’t want it, you know, and all of a sudden our mirror cat goes on.
Yup. Right. Yup. And then you got to have your cat’s fine. Yes. Okay. This is, this is good. I like the train with my kids. Do I like where we’re going with this? That’s all I’m saying. So now let’s talk about, okay, so we have, let’s recap real quick. So you have your limbic system. It’s like the real buyers choice. Like that’s what dis decides. But they could cancel if that’s not strongly covered by their cortex and decision of logic. Yup. What else are we missing in this whole brain? Neuroscience. That’s most of it. And then there’s two benefits from this. There’s being able to recognize those nonverbal cues and other people cause that’s a gauge as to what they’re feeling. That stuff’s just going to leak out without them thinking about it. It’s going to show in their body language. Well yeah. What are some signs of mirror cats on high alert or he sees lying.
I’m lying. I’m sales dude. Yup. So what are the signs that that, that we could pay attention to that they’ll do physically to us. Be Like, oh I see them red flag tripping right now. We can start, you can play this mind game. And if you want to see what it looks like just to start invading someone’s personal space and then watch how they react. Maybe not. Maybe not really do that, but no, but that’s probably because you can see what it is. You’ll see it manifest in a five different ways. You’ll see some kind of distancing behavior where we’re trying to get away from the source of the discomfort. That can be really obvious. Like they’re shutting the door, they’re walking away from you or something like that. It could be more subtle, like a turn of the head or a Turner, the torso or just their feet, if their feet are pointed a different direction than facing towards you.
That can be distance, uh, can be settled, distancing behaviors showing that they aren’t really interested or engaged interest. So next time you’re having a conversation with someone on your board, look at your feet and you might find your feet pointing out in voluntarily showing that you’re already done with the conversation. Yeah. Your body’s speaking even before. Yup. Your soul sometimes. Yeah. Cause that’s the thing too with this, this part of the brain is it’s faster acting than the neocortex. So the nonverbals will leak out faster than you, your neocortex and say it’s not socially cool to show emotions. So I’m going to try to suppress that. Is Your limbic system also almost considered your gut? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This could be the gut and this could be the thinking brain. So when somebody is like, I have a gut feeling that this is a terrible idea, you’re like, well logically it makes sense.
Yup. CORTEX is like speaking to them, but they’re like, but something in my gut that’s the limbic system still plain. Okay. And people will, sometimes we’re getting off on a little bit of a tangent, but uh, some people will just have a feeling about somebody, I just don’t like this person or they just seem condescending or, or this person seems really charismatic. That’s probably the nonverbals that are helping them feel that way. They just don’t realize it or can articulate what it is. Yeah. Okay. So, so, so distancing and let’s get back on that. So that trance is distancing. And then the second one is blocking. If we’re, if we’re uncomfortable, we’ll try to protect vulnerable areas. We’ll try to put obstacles between us and the other person. So that could be with any object. It could be a purse, it could be the door.
That’s probably the one you see the most of the door to door sales or is a block they’re going to hide behind their door because it makes them feel safe. Yeah. Amir cats like all right, the man eating tiger out there trying to sell me stuff to you is do it or it could just be the fold of the arms. Okay. You know, this the most controversial of all body language gestures, you know, whether or not our folding as good or bad. Yeah. Cause sometimes it could be good, right? Yeah. It depends on context and things like that. But it is a natural response if we’re uncomfortable to cover our torso with our arms to make us feel safe. Okay. Interesting. So distancing, blocking, uh, the second one, a third one to be self soothing. So think about somebody that’s nervous in a job interview or public speaking.
What do you see him do sometimes? Oh yeah. In touch in their face. That’s meant to, to sue the you are or to comfort down their leg. Yeah, exactly. Fidgeting with your life, things like that. That’s to get nervous energy out or to try to calm you down. And so that’s a third way that we show that we’re uncomfortable. And then the next way is, is the foreign fiber or kind of a combination of the two that shows in your face you have micro expressions as well as other things that show on the face. And we could spend two hours just on the face, but you’ll see it in one of those ways if somebody is uncomfortable. So like what are some facial cues to look for? Like is it like a squinty I or is that like a like a like a head nod, kind of like what did, yeah, what are some like uncomfortable facial things right.
That we could like look for. And, and some of them, you already mentioned the things that we think negative expressions. It could be narrowed eyes. Uh, it could be discussed. Watch the crinkles in the neurological knows. Yeah. Showing their teeth. It could be furrowed brow. What you have to be a little careful because it could be concentration, but if you see a company with narrowed eyes or a purse, lips, then maybe they’re, they’re getting angry at him. Okay. If you see a contempt is a asymmetrical smile. Oh yeah. That’s kind of like a [inaudible] I can see. Yeah. Yep. And then that usually means either a contempt, I feel like contempt towards you or a sense of superiority. Like a smirk. Like, yeah, who’s this guy? Like I got this. Yeah, he’s mine. I own him. And these expressions could be, can be macro expressions that can be held for a long time.
And that’s when it’s easy. Micro expressions are a subset of that that are fractions of a second and her involuntary. So those ones you have to watch really carefully for. And so if you’re talking to this, they’re trying to hold it back, they’re staying composed. Yup. Yet you’re like saw you. Yeah. How you crack. Yeah. This would be like the master poker player. Exactly. It’s like the poker players tried to pull her into, suppress that and to watch in another people. Interesting. So if you throw out the price, somebody asks you how much is this product, you give them the price and you see one of those, Oh that was a quick micro. That’s how, that’s how short it is. Just a quick quick flash means they’re disgusting. It’s like you opened up the milk and just smelled it and then like yes.
Yeah. But then you wanted to bring back cause you’re not like I’m going to like sit there and be like, oh miss that price things. But it’s just this like ah yeah that one I just did it like naturally. Wow. Do you guys practice this? This is interesting. So practice like do, yeah. Wow. I just noticed myself subconsciously doing that. So it’s weird that we also consciously have the same reaction.
Yup. And we’ll leave and mirror it interests subconsciously. If we see an expression, we’ll, we’ll have mirror neurons in our brains that we’ll, we’ll make it feel almost the same, like a hint of the same emotion and some of the muscle groups will engage to subtly, just a little bit, let me see it in other people. So
do we often is our mirror Kat. Do we start to mirror their discussed and like it spirals down. It’s almost like we catch on, we’re like, oh they’re not happy with this price. So then I start kind of like vibe in that
to start feeling personal or defensive. Yeah, it totally could. The good news is that we can counter, it was more positive cues. Okay. Which their mirror neurons will pick up on. Emotions are catching the three of these expressions and through our body language. So even if they’re showing nonverbal cues, we can send counter friendship cues that can help to, to balance it and try to build the report back up. Interesting.
So now let’s talk about that. Like how to use body language to create trust. You know, cause I’ve done a lot of study on like NLP and things like that, but that’s a lot more word where you know you can leverage body. Well I guess you can like you can do, you can do both. Like yeah, it’s like I can I get you to think or look that way or like head nod. I mean that’s another, you know, it’s like getting them to, to start mirroring you anyway. Yeah. You teach me. I, I’m like, I’m so novice at this. That’s why I’m like, this is interesting. And the verbal and nonverbal do matter. We wouldn’t be able to do this podcast. It’s non verbals along. Hey, who wants to hear this? The nonverbal podcasts. Give this a thumbs up because we are next podcast is going to be nonverbal. Don’t miss it. There was a ted talk
like that where it was literally about nothing. Oh really good. And if you’d watch it on mute, it still look like a good ted talk. But I digress. That’s awesome. So, so things that we can do and then you, you, you picture a typical situation when you’re knocking on the door. Uh, oftentimes you’re at a, a trust deficit. There’s a trust gap automatically that you’re the scum of the earth supposedly. And so they’re, they’re, they’re opening the door, maybe a crack there. They’re distancing, they’re blocking, they’re making an expression on their face. So how can we start setting them at ease and start building up that trust? The end. It is a combination of verbal and nonverbal, but what’s gonna come first? They’re going to see you long before you have a chance to pitch something eyes we can quit. Yep. And so if you can nail that first impression when one thing happens, as soon as we meet somebody, we’re going immediately put them into one of a few categories. We’re going to put them in a friend category that that’s a good place to be in itself. A, they’re going to put you in an enemy category as a foe or competitor. Yup. Uh, they’ll put you in a potential mate
that would be solid. Hey, that may be healthy. So hard part right now. Give us a, like if you have been under like situate in the mate situation, do you open that door and that like 15 year old girl comes out and you’re just like, nope, I’m not ready to make it. Nope. Nope.
Yeah, I’ve had that. You’re just like, no, I am. There’s definitely married. Dig It. Like flirting body language is different podcasts. Yeah. Who wants to hear the, how do you use body language to find Nate podcast? Okay, so I’m going to make, I like this. So friend foe a potential mate or completely irrelevant. I was at, at speaking at a conference last week and I had one of the people come up to me after and he was saying, I hope you don’t remember me, but a few years back I interviewed with you and I just completely bombed it and I felt path for him. I was like, we’ve all bombed interviews. I know what it’s like, but I didn’t remember him at all. And that’s not really where you, you don’t want to be there or the full bucket when you’re trying to sell people and they’re making these decisions.
As soon as they see you, they’re, they’re seeing your static nonverbals. You know him, I’m bald, I’m tall and my face is a certain width. All those things are coming into play on, on whether or not they trust us and sees is competent, but they’re also looking at the stuff that we can control. And there was a, an old FBI agent that found that he could get a lot further in his, in his work just by building up relationships and trust with people. And he actually came up with a formula for it, a formula for friendship and from his studies he found that during that first impression, if you can send a cluster of three Qs, then it’ll send a signal to their mere cat that I’m a friend and you can trust me and wants to know what these three q’s Are. You got me curious.
Okay. Okay. I’ll start with this one. I like it. The first of the cluster is just an eyebrow raise. It’s like I see you. Yeah, I’d be up. I’ve done that. It’s a number of bolts up I’m hearing. Okay. I’m not even sure exactly sure why that is, but it sends a message that I’m a friend. He can try it. If you’re walking in the halls with somebody, do you give them a little of this and it’s like we’re, we’re on the same team. Yeah, it’s, I can’t and if you both, I flashed at each other then you know your friends, your friends. Wow. Yeah. I tried that with the, I was at church and there was a six month old baby in front of me and I was born and she was looking back. So I just did a quick eyebrow flash and she eyebrow flash back and made friends.
So it’s, so it’s just in our, it’s in our being. It’s in our deep inner mind. Yup. And uh, my, my 10 year old, when he was 10 at the time, told me I grew up, came up to him and said [inaudible] this with her eyebrows. And he said, dad, is that a body language thing? Which gets more into the flirting thing but that’s connected to, so that’s the first cluster is, is the eyebrow flash, the verbal non what’s up. Okay. The next part is a slight head tilt. You don’t overdo it and then you look like you’re sure of footballs. Yeah. But just the slight head tilt does a couple of different things that you’re exposing a vulnerable area of your neck. And so you’re showing the I trust you and interest and in return you’ll trust me more. You’ll see dogs and cats do this too.
Sometimes tilt their head. It’s also a great nonverbal way of showing that you’re listening. So I’m rough. Flash, slight head tilt and those are all positive friendship keys. And then the third Q is a smile. Okay. Which is easy enough to do, but there’s such a thing as a real smile on a fake smile. You know what to tell the different fake smile. That last one. Yeah. So if I, if I smile like you do for family portraits. Yeah, that’s nice work. Or if you have frenemies and you’re pretending to be happy for their success. Yeah. Now that there’s a difference between that, do you know how to tell the difference between that and the a real smile one. So what’s this? If I need to like tell a joke or something like a real smile from the emotion centers of the brain will engage muscles around the eyes and cause I crinkles in it and our brains can arm your cats seeing on the mouth when we mere cat army or interfere, cats can tell the difference.
So if somebody sees a picture of someone with a genuine smile on their face, like if they’re laughing, they got a mood boost from it. Yeah. It’s like, oh that’s a sweet photo. Yup. Versus like that’s awkward. If it’s, if it’s a fake one, they don’t get the same mood boost. And so this is a huge friendship cue. It’s one of the only expressions that you can see from 300 feet away. So it’s, it’s a big way of signaling to somebody that your friend. Interesting. So how do you, so I knocked the door, I’m going to throw off all three, had not had dope smile all in a combo and try not to make it off. Yeah. Now it’s like awkward. Like it’s like, eh. Anyway, so I, you know, I and knocked that door. How do I not in genuinely smile, you know what I mean?
I feel like the other two you could probably wing but like the smile, like how do you authentically come off with a real one versus like, hi, Hey, hi, I’m here. You do the best you can. When in doubt just try to smile. Hi. Cause even the simulation and seeing that in the crinkles in the I help celebritize. Yup. Yup. But if you can try and this is like really awkward or I am doing it really right now. Okay. Watching myself. It’s like if you’re feeling self conscious than my work is done. If you’re doing it with us, congratulations. And a, so as another slight tangent, there’s a whole blog called photofeeler.com where you can upload a picture and people will rate, they’ll say, how are you trust wise? Like where are you at? Yeah. Likewise. Yeah, exactly. And one of those things that they found was a good attribute to having a pitcher was squinty eyes. And I’d maybe they don’t know why. Maybe they do, but it’s because the genuine smile, your eyes start to squint a little bit. It’s awkward smiling to this old guys, open your eyes really wide and smile. That’s more fight or flight.
See how you do those costs. Three cues. And then now that we know that if we’re uncomfortable, there’s distancing blocking, self soothing, we can, we can try to leverage that to slowly build trust with them. And I’ll use some examples of extremes to, to illustrate if if they’re a little uncomfortable and you’re standing super close to the door, then what’s going to happen? They’re going to feel even more uncomfortable going to the district distance and block and yeah. And so we can step back farther from the door. Maybe not too far. You still got to find a balance, but stand back a little bit to give them space so that they feel the inner mere cat feels more safe. Yup. And you can even angle your torso out just a little bit so you’re not facing correct. Yeah. And maybe not even direct eye contact, eye contact and other one on those things.
You have to balance just right. It’s, it’s great to have evidence. It’s great for building rapport. If you overdo it and you’re boring into their soul, then it becomes a great start to want to put the block and yeah, cause they’re in America. It’s like holy crap, I’m not this little it into an intense, so intense. So, so some salespeople that implement this, they’ll, they’ll have their notepad or something that the folding angle to the door and they’ll, they’ll make eye contact and fiduciary, not eyebrow raised smile. Yeah, look back down, break that eye contact. Right. I did. And then as the trust is starting to build, then they start closing the gap a little bit and they start angling their torso more towards the person. They start increasing the icon telling closer, start easing them into it. So it doesn’t trigger the mere cat to, to retreating. And so many people are just like, boom, route robot mode.
I’m hair. Like, and it’s just like, and it just, yeah, like I’ve watched that. And then I’ve also watched like
the hi, I’m seeing with, you know what I mean? I’ve seen both like very bads. I and, and it’s cool the way that you’re framing this because I’ve wanted to train on this, but I’ve been unconsciously competent. Right. You’re bringing the consciousness to what I try to train on. So this is, this is really cool. So I would, without doing door to door, you were teaching what we teach just in a much more sophisticated way. You know what I mean? Like this is it people, it doesn’t come naturally. Yeah. We have to learn it. You have to be conscious. You have to be learning. Yeah. And most of these doors, those guys that are good are naturally pretty good. They just, they just figured that out by nature. Where I think some people, it’s, it’s all about the ability to teach. I can take an it guy and teach him how to do door to door, teach them how to sell.
You hope. Yeah. It gives, you know, but that’s the thing is if you’re not naturally good at it, you can limit. No, it’s, you can learn it. And I think that’s where a lot of leaders give up is they think though, this just can’t be taught what’s just nobody taught you. Therefore you just don’t know what you’re supposed to be teaching. So I love that there’s some consciously competence that we’re bringing to that first initial approach of like, there’s a reason why you want to eye contact. I’ve already looked down, looked back up. Okay, smile.
Oh, that’s like a, I’m like, that’s a dance. That’s a straight up dance. All right, first one, two, three, four. I mean, I could literally dance it. That is so cool. All right, keep going. Sorry. I’m just like loving this. Totally. And, and, and along that same good news is if it doesn’t feel natural yet,
it’s just like any other skill. If you’re trying to pick up ping pong or trying to ride a bike, if you, if you practice it, then it will eventually become second nature and it won’t come across as awkward because the last thing you want to do is have it be awkward. Yeah, no, it’s just like my backend stroke in tennis. It’s like, man, I feel like I’m like so awkward. But then I kept practicing and it’s just like, if you’re like mine than I had the wrong muscle memory. And then, um, okay, so let’s, let’s go into, so the one is, that’s one way to build bridge the gap is, is proper these, you know, positive reinforcing body language hacks. Let’s move into what are other ways nonverbal or um, yeah, just nonverbal ways that we can create trust and create more of a buyer versus a runner.
You know? Okay. Uh, another one that I really like a, there’s a Ted talk from Allan Pease that talks about this. He does an experiment with groups of people, and I’ve done this too in speeches where he’ll ask the group to do the same thing three times and they don’t actually do it. He just wants them to see how they feel and they get the request. And he asked him three times. And all he does is he just changes the orientation of his hands. So the first time he’s asking them to do something. So, so for example, he’ll stand in front of everybody and say, uh, like those that are in the side of the room to come up to the side and those on the side to come over here. So that was his back. He lasts the same thing with changing just what he does with his hand gestures.
Okay. The first time he does it open palm like what I showed and then the second time he’ll do it with his palms down like this. Okay. Those of you come over here and those come over here. And then the third time he does it with this finger and those on the side come over here and those in the back to come forward. And those in the front to go anywhere. The cheese. And even just as I’m describing it, does it feel different? It’s different if, what would you describe this as? Being, if I started command like a, you’re beneath me. Yeah. Like you petty little condescending little punks like condescending and he’s talking down. Yes. Hey little guy. Yeah. And that’s just the changing hand gestures and immediately influences how we feel and how compliant we are. That limbic system. Yup. And there’s a reason for it.
If we’re doing an open palm, we’re exposing a vulnerable area on our wrists. So kind of like the neck, uh, we’re showing, I trust you and primates, you’ll see doing those steel, they’ll put a palm out to owners. It almost be like how you would go if I were to go feed an alligator, you know what I mean? Here you go, little buddy. Come on. No, but it’s simply like I’m want to show that like I’m not going to hurt you. So this is very open and inviting. And so what’s interesting is he’s run this experiment with a bunch of different groups and on average if he asks the group with poems open, he’ll get 84% of them willing to do what they’re being asked to do. That’s a pretty good buy rate. Wow. But when the palm comes down, about half of them start resisting now because it starts feeling like a command.
And when the finger comes out this finger clarity, then only 28% do what he’s asking him to be. Interesting. Why the finger? Well that’s just more condescending. Or is that more like it’s more just you? It almost doesn’t include, it’s, it’s singling out. It’s, yeah, I could see that. And it’s next level of a, of a component as directive and it’s, yeah, it just feels a lot more direct. Cool. Okay. So that’s pom. That’s hands. What else? And actually if you watch politicians wanting some presidential debates coming, oh this’ll be fun. Yeah. So this is a science, like this is like they study this. Yep. Especially on the federal level. They get coached a lot. Trump kind of does his own thing. But the career politicians watch for this open palm gesture. They like to do the open poems because compliance and because it’s open and inviting.
Uh, and then when they’re talking, if they want to get serious, they’ll do the soft finger. When he down thing, I’ve ever seen him do that. So open poem and we call this the carrot dip cause they didn’t want to do a fist. That’s too angry and too forceful. They don’t want to do this. That’s to Hitler as a to Nixon and so they’ll, they’ll sometimes do a soft fist like this with their thumb or point their finger down to the soft fist. So like we’re doing this right now. Yeah. Like that would almost be like a commanding without coming over bearing. Yeah. At least when they’re in control of their emotions and they’re going with their, their body language coach. Yeah. When they start to get upset at each other, then the polls start coming down on the fingers start coming out. Interesting. So what about, you know, in a closing table situation, are there any nonverbals that you can almost start to help move somebody to decision other than just the hands?
Like I now think of it, I’m, I’m like signing paperwork and I’m like, yeah, just check this out instead of like sign right here. Right. Think about it like sign right here or this is just right where you need to do it. Yeah. Interesting. Like he just pointing where they look at it. Yeah. Wow. I haven’t confirmed but I’m told that Disneyland, they teach their staff to, to not point with a finger. They always have to do two fingers or pawn to gesture when they’re directing people. This is cool and I liked this exposure of the, of the vulnerable spots. If you spread your legs open and kind of show the Crotch, is that kind of like a sign of is I’m curious, is that a power move? I was like, I’m going to just [inaudible] man spread. Is that just showing the Cobra? Is this the like I’m so in control and confident right now.
The more confident you are, the more space you take up and you can, or asterisk, you’re feeling uncomfortable but you’re trying to hide it. Either way it’s power, body language to to take up more space and guys done to probably do that more. That’s where the band spreading thing came from, so that’s a thing. I was just, I was, I was making a joke out of it and I was like, no, but wouldn’t that be the same concept? It makes sense. It’s like I’m like, I’m here. Like you can hit me in the chest versus like, like if I’m like this, it’s kind of like, yeah, this is my main power with low power. I’m like gonna hide. Like don’t hit my heart where it’s like, well, what’s interesting is that even blind people will do that same type of thing. Really. They didn’t learn the right body language from watching people, but they’ll do when they feel victorious. You Watch Special Olympics blind athletes when they’re successful inventories, they still, they don’t know. It’s interesting. So it’s just, it’s just part of our wiring. It’s how we, how we are meant to communicate.
So how do we impact, so let’s say their mirror cat is yelling, tripping, like I don’t need to buy, how can I like help calm them down through body language in the sense of like, Hey, I’m here. Like is there any like hacks of like, you can trust me, don’t worry. Like Yup. Yeah. What would be like a way to calm that miry cat?
And it’s mostly the same things that we’ve been doing. If I’m angled off, I’m not making too much eye contact, I’m, I’m creating some space that gives them a safe place to start to calm down. Another thing that you can do either during those first few moments but also throughout the entire conversation is mirroring. When we are really close to somebody or, or comfortable with, somebody will naturally start to mirror their body language and oftentimes the verbal content will start to get married to and so you can, you can subtly don’t copycat him and make our lobbyists, but you can suddenly mirror somebody else’s body language. And so consciously they’ll like this feels familiar. I there’s something about this person I like.
Sure. What is your in the same year in the same tribe you’re in the cm team. Yup. Cause you’re both playing the same body shape.
Yeah. And the same FBI guy that I mentioned, he’ll, he’ll do that deliberately when he’s talking to somebody, mirror their body language and then part way through the conversation he’ll switch something up and see if the mirror or
back, cause he wants to gain back control and to see if he’s got sufficient enough rapport built up. Yeah. If they start marrying him, he’s like, yeah. And if they don’t then he goes back to Marion them friendship cues to build that report. So it’s all reported belt. Yup. Interesting. Wow. I am just nugget after nugget like yeah. Millions and hearing so far. Yeah, I like it. Have we mirrored like, I’m just curious it like watching this, that is so interesting because subconsciously we do this and so often we’re thinking about what we should be saying and this is the crazy part. I think people, once you, if you want to be an expert at sales, if you want to be an expert influencer, my opinion is you’re already so good at the words. It’s like the words now it’s the game of the nonverbal, you know what I mean?
It’s like done. I know what I’m going to be saying that’s so rehearsed that so automatic. It’s how it’s how I can benefit. Super rehearsed. How do you make it not sound rehearsed? Yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s just, it’s just, I’ve embodied it so I now can be like I’m saying it’s coming out, but it’s like fun to be like, where’s he at? Is he in power mode? Is he hadn’t retractive do I need to mirror him? Does he need to meet with me? Is it, is he marrying me? But most of those guys are like still stuck on like how am I going to say it? Right? Cause our mirror cats are like a, what if I mess up? And what if he thinks I’m down and my pits are sweating and my nose hairs are too long? You know what any of the year you’re freaking out. And then the now pushing off this like incompetence, which is kind of the last thing. And their mirror neurons, right?
Pick up on that. If they see them low power, they see them with nervous body language and that anxiety they’ll pick up on as well, which isn’t gonna help with trust.
Yeah. It’s like you think about it. I think there’s all this stuff we’ve been talking about. And then the last thing and we were going to segue into is just this, the factor of incompetence. I think it immediately lose loses trust when they see your, don’t know what you’re talking about or your not confident in what you’re talking about or your, you know, doubting yourself and your own ability. And I think there’s an automatic like red flag that goes off. I’m assuming the Americana, like this is, this is America line and Marquette clothing. Anyway. Uh, no, I think that that’s an important piece to this whole trusts, um, conversation. Yeah. That gives balance.
Yeah. You want to come across as likeable and warm and trustworthy, but show that you’re, you know, what you’re talking about. Otherwise he ended up in the, bless their hearts.
No. And, and we see that, that’s funny that you call it the blood. I’m going to use that coin. I’ll give Jeff TM. Yeah, Hashtag [inaudible] bless their hearts category. You know what I mean? It’s so fun. A pity. No, but sometimes that’s what’s so funny is people have this like, oh I’m going to keep listening into cause I felt bad for you. And if you’re that and you’re managing that rat but you’re getting to wake them up and be like, dude, you’re literally the only sales you’re getting or straight paid by us. Like you’re never going to be great if you’re still leveraging the trust your heart, like your heart heartless. But it’s so I see a lot of them though and you’re just kind of like this is painful watching this. It is painful. And then it’s like here’s the ball or category. So it’s like where are you at on that scale? And I think that that, that’s something important to add. So anything else on competence that you know like, and the good news with that, just like
likability is there are some simple things you can change. Like we do have control over. That affects how confident we appear to people. And the one that we’ve already touched on is if you’re, if you’re nervous, then you tend to shrink your shoulders roll forward, your head comes down and you start doing self soothing. So if you notice yourself doing that, then I’ll come back gurge could your shoulders back, your head high, keep making eye contact and even if you’re faking it, then they’ll at least see the nonverbals there. Mere cat. I may not pick up on it as quickly. And then you practice that until it becomes natural.
Yeah, it’s practice it. Practice it. Make this part of your training meetings like, Hey, I’m watching your pitch, but you look like a scared Miracast. Like, you know what I mean? It’s like now practice it just like this. Even though you are so scared and it’s your first week, just practice even overexaggerate tidy. Exactly. It’s like I’m here because you don’t have to do this at the door, but in secret, in front of the mirror when you’re hiking yourself. Exactly. No. Makes it feel it. Feel more coffee. You should, I think that that would be like over exaggerate your practice. So we’re in, you’re in the door, you’re like, oh, I know how to even be like even more open than I did right now. I want to see that version of me. Yeah. It’s like, you know what I mean? I think that that is a is a point that you know, I’ve never been trained on it.
No, I’ve never done trainings on and this is like, man, I’m going to add this to my fricking arsenal of like content. Anybody think this is fire share this because this was, this was good. This was like a very tactical, a plus B formula to say how do you create trust? Because I say trust is a currency. I, I coined that. Like I’m just like you literally your ability to create trust and trust people and have them trust you straight as a currency in prints money and it’s like you are can be a master trust creator.
Like you can do a lot. That’s the FBI guy that I mentioned. That’s his whole premise and he was giving tasks like trying to get information from spy shackled to it.
That’s, yeah. Usually I’m going to gain trust with the mafia that’s, and I’m wearing an FBI suit that’s
scap. And so he can do it and then we can do it to get sales. Yeah.
And if I tell you this, I’ll get my head blown off when I get into jail. Well you should still telling me this. It’s like, Geez, like that is a master. That’s awesome. What’s that guy’s name? If we wanted to look
Jack Shafer, he has a book called the light switch. The light. Yeah. Somebody asks like, Hey, the light switch like switch, you’ll see a lots of it. Lots of overlap. He talks about the friendship cues. He talks about mirroring because body language is, is so, so fundamental to what he was doing to try to get information from spies, have to try to get people to turn against their country. Any other good references to resources that we could all start to consume? Yeah. Um, what everybody’s saying, Joe Navarro, he’s another FBI guy. What everybody’s saying. Yeah. I like those guys. Cause there’s very, I’m still kind of a data guy at heart, very rooted in science. I love it. No, I’m all about lots of fluff out there about body language. These guys talk about the real science behind body language. So I like those too. And then there’s one called captivate from Vanessa van Edwards and that one goes beyond just body language. It’s all people skills. Oh cool. So no guys do have you written a book or have like a podcast or how can we find you? I mean, I like abilities.dot com right now [inaudible] dot com okay. And then I’ve got a podcast that I will be launching. It hasn’t started yet. Oh, cool.
Mamby on it. If you want me to know that we should just fun. Yeah, that’s why. Okay. Well if you guys have liked this, give the uh, give Jeff a big love and big hard, I’d get share or something. Give him a review. Go add them on Facebook or something. Um, but appreciate you showing up on the show. Like this was really cool. Like this was a first time doing anything very outside of like interviewing door to door people. You know, you’ve interviewed psychologists and stuff like that, but never anything like, so geek. Yeah. Now it science of the brain like this. So super cool. Um, appreciate you guys. Uh, much love. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.